Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

RFS, SES, SLSA, VRA, SJA
User avatar
tsunami_australia
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:06 pm

The Z is a scan symbol. Because voting is a "vote scan" for Motorola it's still a scan and it means the radio is scanning.

I've not seen the T but it sounds like it's for trunking if anything.

User avatar
Bigfella237
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:11 pm
Location: In geosynchronous orbit above the Far South Coast of NSW, Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by Bigfella237 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:46 pm

In 'Motorola-speak' simplex is called "Talkaround".

User avatar
JAFO
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by JAFO » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:55 am

Ok, stand corrected.

On our Motorola Radio's,
- XTS3000: T is present in Simplex and Repeater Operation. 'T' & 'Z' is Present in Vote Scan & GRN.
- XTS5000: T is present in Simplex and Repeater Operation. 'T' & 'Z' is Present in Vote Scan. 'IP' Present while on GRN
APX6000XE, 8000XE, 8000HXE Handhelds, T is present in Simplex and Repeater Operation. 'T' & 'Z' is Present in Vote Scan. 'IP' Present while on GRN

ETL5000, T is present in Simplex and Repeater Operation. 'T' & 'Z' is Present in Vote Scan & GRN.

Will admit, never notice the 'IP' on the screen. and after 24 years I don't go looking at the instruction manual too much any more, just turn the things On and go in, and since P25 has come in, I've tried to avoid the need to transmit while wearing BA, P25 has been the worse move in Fire Ground Comm's Clarity, most of us will exit a building and pass a message by voice to another FF rather then trying to use a FireGround radio, P25 with BA is shit.
JAFO
VK2FGQ

UBCD369XT, UBCD536-PT, UBCD436-PT

User avatar
tsunami_australia
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:06 am

You're not supposed to be talking to firecom when in BA! You're only supposed to be using simplex frequencies.

UHF fireground frequencies (eg UHF Fireground 1-4 are analogue) have both analogue and P25 and the VHF are all analogue so if you're so worried about P25 then try to use them.

Frankly in most areas the ability to have the repeaters use comparators etc has made a HUGE advantage in most areas. Don't expect a handheld in some ditch somewhere to match a vehicle radio it'll never happen. If you're in a situation where you're in BA then you will have a groupie on the way else you have massive issues in the control centre and should have someone else outside with the radio to talk with firecom.

User avatar
rustynswrail
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:18 pm
Location: Blue Mountains

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by rustynswrail » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:47 am

tsunami_australia wrote:You're not supposed to be talking to firecom when in BA! You're only supposed to be using simplex frequencies.
Put your glasses on Glenn, he clearly said, "P25 has been the worse move in Fire Ground Comm's"

R
Amateur Radio, when all other cures for insomnia fail!

Scotty
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:50 am
Location: Sydney and surrounds

Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by Scotty » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:53 am

rustynswrail wrote:
tsunami_australia wrote:You're not supposed to be talking to firecom when in BA! You're only supposed to be using simplex frequencies.
Put your glasses on Glenn, he clearly said, "P25 has been the worse move in Fire Ground Comm's"

R
While those of us who have been here a while know JAFO is in FRNSW and was therefore likely referring to their comms, this thread is actually about the RFS (and SES), which only use P25 for ‘Firecom’ communication. Even though ‘fireground’ comms were mentioned, the confusion is understandable.

User avatar
tsunami_australia
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:49 pm

rustynswrail wrote:
Put your glasses on Glenn, he clearly said, "P25 has been the worse move in Fire Ground Comm's"
Righto ... good catch. I still strongly disagree with their claim just the same, just for other reasons. The constant scratch scratch at firegrounds used to piss me off something shocking.

It amazes me how much mis-info there is in the RFS about U/V fireground channels. I've tried educating some but my forehead is getting a little sore and bloody from the brick wall. They've all got this misconception that comms sets the channel and control name (nope SOPs state the opposite), that 2 incidents 50-100km apart will interfere with each other on VHF FG01 then their bs claim that it's somehow "easier" to just have seperate channels per incident instead of just rolling with tell all responding for both FG01. NOONE in the local area seems to realise that UHF SIM01 is THE EXACT same frequency as SIM05 etc rolling through the cycles in them. I tried explaining when they allocated one day 1 and 5 to fires beside each other (within 3km) that it was a BAD BAD move that would cause interference and was foo foo'd away as not knowing what I'm talking about. Despite the fact they're different tones, they're still the same frequency and unless side by side there is a massive chance for one incident to block an important call at the other. Then there is the claims they're ALL digital now which have been made by some. Oh and the claims that ANLG and DGTL won't interfere with each other despite the frequency being the same. Unfortunately I just gave up.

User avatar
JAFO
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by JAFO » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:14 pm

Scotty wrote:While those of us who have been here a while know JAFO is in FRNSW and was therefore likely referring to their comms, this thread is actually about the RFS (and SES), which only use P25 for ‘Firecom’ communication. Even though ‘fireground’ comms were mentioned, the confusion is understandable.
Scotty . . . shhhhhhhh . . . I'm both . . . RFS 17 years . . . . FRNSW 31 . . . . although FRNSW is my full-time profession . . . . . 24hr shifts have made me somewhat Semi-retired it seems/feels . . . don't tell anyone
tsunami_australia wrote:It amazes me how much mis-info there is in the RFS about U/V fireground channels. I've tried educating some but my forehead is getting a little sore and bloody from the brick wall. They've all got this misconception that comms sets the channel and control name (nope SOPs state the opposite), that 2 incidents 50-100km apart will interfere with each other on VHF FG01 then their bs claim that it's somehow "easier" to just have seperate channels per incident instead of just rolling with tell all responding for both FG01.
From my Experience, RFS - as you have stated 'tsunami', it is the Incident OIC who Selects the Incident Control Name & FG Channel, in many cases the local FCC may have already through Pre Incident Comm's Planning, may have selected a Primary Fire Ground Channel for use within the RFS Zone for Crews to use. For instance Cumberland Zone Primary FG Channel is CH18. This is to reduce interference with adjoining RFS Zones such as Hawkesbury and the Hills district during active incidents . . . on a good day along mid may up Annangrove Rd all the way up to the Hills FCC, you can hear CH18 transmissions nice and clear from Hickeys Lane in North Penrith as clear as day.

but at the end of the Day, as an RFS Incident Controller, if State Fire Comm's or FCC request me to use a particular Fire Ground Channel, I will on the grounds that they have a wider situational awareness then I do of based on my immediate location, and my selection may interfere with another current running incident ground comm's . . . so would happy to comply.

This was an issue with Fire Ground Comm's down the South Coast last Session, although an extreme example, FireComm's may have to Nominate the Fire Ground Channel to minimise Comm's Interference with other Fire Grounds is in close proximity to each other . . . one of the issues many RFS crews made mention of from our Zone, stating it was very confusing trying to work out what was important to Us and What was Not .

And ESO SIM or GRN ESO Channels are confusing for some RFS Firefighters to allow Cross Service Comm's, especially for some country RFS members who many never had used an ESO SIM or GRN Channels for Cross Service Comm's. Trying to explain that Comm's Plan concept can be fun.

FireGround Radio interference within FRNSW, is a regularly occurrence when we have had more then One (1) "Multiple Alarm" Incident going on in the Sydney Region . . . a regular occurrence in the Outer West and South West. Even having 4 Sectors operating around a Major Building can have safety issues when you have 20 odd BA Crews working in separate sectors but on the same channel. Then throw in a 2nd Incident 15klm away. I have experience this first hand a number of times, it dose create some confusion when you have water relays and aerials being setup, or a "Firefighter Down Call" transmitted where both Incidents grounds can hear and react too it . . . even 15klm apart it can be dangerous for crews on both fire grounds.

Interesting to Note, Newer FRNSW APX8000XE and APX8000HXE Handhelds Radio's now have RFS FireGround Radio Channels programmed in, so combined FireGround Comm's are now possible,
JAFO
VK2FGQ

UBCD369XT, UBCD536-PT, UBCD436-PT

User avatar
tsunami_australia
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:39 pm

The combined channels should have been there from day dot I think outside of GRN areas. KJ, VKG etc etc don't need to talk with us but FRNSW there are times where it would be exceptionally beneficial.

Speaking as somoene who's been on both sides and from an area that is VERY large we don't generally have to seperate the fireground channels and anything beyond FG06 is RARELY used. I get what you mean for Sydney areas where they're MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller areas. It seems more in this case most just can't look at the channel on the board when asked for it for each incident and have to be odd about it.

What gets me, if we dare look at the radios in the rack we get read the riot act .... the paid staff seem to forget about brigade seperation since it's in the FCC and there's never any training. I don't think anyone else in the brigade even knows how to change zones and channels on the APX portables (or the XTS back then) and struggle greatly with the 03 XTL/APX mobiles.

User avatar
JAFO
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by JAFO » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:57 pm

tsunami_australia wrote:The combined channels should have been there from day dot I think outside of GRN areas. KJ, VKG etc etc don't need to talk with us but FRNSW there are times where it would be exceptionally beneficial.

Speaking as somoene who's been on both sides and from an area that is VERY large we don't generally have to seperate the fireground channels and anything beyond FG06 is RARELY used. I get what you mean for Sydney areas where they're MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller areas. It seems more in this case most just can't look at the channel on the board when asked for it for each incident and have to be odd about it.

What gets me, if we dare look at the radios in the rack we get read the riot act .... the paid staff seem to forget about brigade seperation since it's in the FCC and there's never any training. I don't think anyone else in the brigade even knows how to change zones and channels on the APX portables (or the XTS back then) and struggle greatly with the 03 XTL/APX mobiles.
tsunami_

I'm a member of two RFS Brigades, one here in Sydney, we use FG Radio's all the time.

My 2nd RFS Brigade . . . My home Town Brigade . . . . the FG Radio's are still in their boxs in the office.

there is a GRN Site 5klm out of town . . . . they don't even know about, no idea about ESO Channels, as the local Police, Ambulance & RFS Crews just use the local Ch5 Emergency UHF Repeater to talk to each other . . . . the desire to learn and train are very different in the East then out in the West
JAFO
VK2FGQ

UBCD369XT, UBCD536-PT, UBCD436-PT

Post Reply