Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

RFS, SES, SLSA, VRA, SJA
poobah
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:31 pm

Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by poobah » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:21 am

Hi everyone, new member here. I'm a volunteer with both services, and I have splashed out and got a Unication G3 incoming. I'm in the RFS Mid-Murray zone (eg Barham / Conargo / Deniliquin / Jerilderie / Mathoura / Moama) and SES Southern region.

I just had a play with the Unication programming software, and I'm out of my depth. I've had a good look at the data at Ozscan and RadioReference, but there's still a lot I don't understand. I've found a few single frequencies (which I'm assuming to be control channels) and some NACs, but I can't seem to find any TGIDs or Hex codes for NON-GRN systems. The software seems to allow a few "FFF"s, which means it will find codes on the fly, but I guess that means it'll pick up everythng whether I want it or not?

There is no GRN here yet but all the talk is that it is coming. Both agencies have recently been issued APXs. My guess is that both are using trunked P25 phase 2, in readiness for the rollout. But I am guessing. I'm pretty sure that we don't need to switch channels on the RFS PMR when moving between neighbouring towns, yet the towers appear to use different frequencies. So trunking, right?!

I could really use a little help!

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tsunami_australia
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Location: Mid North Coast NSW Australia

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:00 am

I'd wait until they start installing. The biggest reason I say that, the expansion here where I am north of Sydney has all new CC frequencies instead of the old list. So guaranteed when the install is done there you'll have to add or change some controllers.

RadioReference has the talkgroup codes you seek unless they're REALLY new talkgroups. For controllers if you plan on moving around you could add the old list and then add to it as the newer list is built. Else if just staying around your area or static add your local CC's only which will help with scan speed etc once you know them.

The Uniden 996 range was a bit of a smack in the face too when I started with it. End result I programmed it how I saw fit for my purpose since GRN was not near us and now I'm having to look at changing things about but the Motorola radios get first dibs on new programming and being XTL/XTS with their limited trunking CC list etc It's going to be more of a challenge. In my case I've never had to worry about the NACs and I'd be surprised if you do. It'd only be an issue when there are 2 sites close enough together in a really dense area.

As for your conventional (non-trunked) frequencies. There used to be some sites had some stuff but the easiest and surest way to get what you want is spend time searching ALL your local repeater sites on the ACMA database. Learn what to look for in regards to emission designators (eg 200Kxxxxxx is not what you want to be listening to rather 10Kxxxx and 16Kxxxx. Check the antennas and tx power in the registration as well as 0.5-5w into a yagi is a link and you're not likely to get lucky where 50w into a vertical co-linear tx frequency is where you'll hear something.

poobah
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:31 pm

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by poobah » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:04 pm

Thanks TA, but the pager will be here on Monday, the GRN certainly won't ;0)

I'm happy to reprogram when it does (and I'm sure by then I will have reprogrammed it a thousand times) but obvously I'm keen to put the new toy to work ASAP.

I can't find any talk groups for NSW RFS or SES that AREN'T GRN. So maybe it isn't trunked? I've found the attached channel info, but I don't really understand how the system works without a control channel. Do the radios themselves just find the nearest tower and switch to it (and if so, how does a radio know which frequency to transmit on when travelling into a new area?!)

I'm having a play setting up conventional P25, and it is still asking for TGIDs. Clearly I'm struggling to get my head around the basics here! :?
NSW RFS PMR.gif
(38.38 KiB) Not downloaded yet
NSW SES PMR.gif
(27.67 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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rustynswrail
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by rustynswrail » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:57 pm

If it is not in the GRN area then it is not trunking. The RFS/SES PMR systems use voting. Voting is, without going into the technical details, a system whereby a receive comparator examines the incoming signal from all sites. It determines which is the best above a pre-determined level and locks onto that site. The transmission of a brief data marker continuously switches radios between sites as the radio roams around the voting area. Your Unication may and I repeat may have voting but I am not sure. If not scanning can achieve a similar but possibly slightly slower result. Not that you will notice all that much.

Control channels are normally only applicable to trunking systems, there are exceptions but for this exercise we will stick with that.

Some free advice, Radio Reference is in no uncertain terms useless when it comes to Australian data. It is an American business that can be best described as GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Sites like this one are far better for information and this one is free!
Amateur Radio, when all other cures for insomnia fail!

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JAFO
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by JAFO » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:13 pm

I researched the ACMA Database last month for the Murray Region . . . the most southern suspect GRN Site I found was in Wagga . . . I was only seeing single . . . sometimes 2 or 3 allocation for the RFS & SES down around Barham, Deniliquin, Jerilderie, Mathoura and Moama areas, suggesting PMR is still in Use.

Now sorry, I didn't really record the RFS or SES allocations as I was only searching for FRNSW & ASNSW Frequencies.
JAFO
VK2FGQ

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poobah
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by poobah » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:31 pm

Aah, thank you, things are beginning to make sense! I had already checked the ACMA site and found a few frequencies, but the voting thing had stumped me. So I just program in the frequencies that 'might' be used, and scan them, right? No codes or anything required?

I haven't been able to find much specific network data for my area on this forum, is there a database somewhere that I've missed?!

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tsunami_australia
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by tsunami_australia » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:15 am

OP you are confusing conventional and trunking. Talkgroups are NOT used in emergency services conventional voting systems (some Americans use it in larger areas).

The frequency/repeater list you have displayed a copy of is what you want. You need the repeaters' tx frequency and then if you choose you can put the applicable "NAC" in or just leave it at wildcard (F7E? Can't remember and no time atm to look at my programming).

A hint for you, find which of them frequencies work for you then do an ACMA database search for that frequency, follow to the site of where it is then start from there with what else you can listen to and follow from there the RF links to other sites. It takes some time but nets guaranteed results.

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Bigfella237
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by Bigfella237 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:22 am

tsunami_australia wrote: ~ Talkgroups are NOT used in emergency services conventional voting systems ~
You obviously don't log NSWPF channels! 8-)

As far as conventional vote groups are concerned, you can basically ignore them, from a scanning prospective anyway. Each base still TXs on a unique frequency it's just the BaseRX freqs that are common to each vote group.

Andrew

poobah
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Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by poobah » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:22 am

Thanks again guys, appreciate it.

Just to explain where my confusion was - I had already searched the ACMA database at some length, including following the azimuth of certain GHz channels, and figured out a few of the key frequencies and links around my area. What had me stumped was that I didn't grasp voting - so I was confused how the RFS could use one frequency in town A, and another one in town B, and yet the radio would work on both without manually switching. I figured it was using a kind of trunking. and that I would need some codes to play along.

So I understand now there is no trickery needed to identify or decode the channel - scanning all of the RFS frequencies in my region should ensure I receive anything transmitted, even when I move around the area. If I receive unwanted signals, I can use the NAC (or tones, as applicable) to filter them out.

If my understanding is correct, then my pager will simply stop at the first active frequency it finds, which is not necessarily the strongest (not that I foresee a major problem, just trying to get my head around the principles)?

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rustynswrail
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Location: Blue Mountains

Re: Help needed - RFS & SES, Mid Murray (non GRN).

Post by rustynswrail » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:34 pm

Basically you are correct. The only exception is if you happen to be mid point between Transmitter A and Transmitter B the audio may become choppy as the receiver switches back and forth, as it is not capable of voting properly. Likewise if you are sitting on a high point that can 'see' two TX sites, there maybe the same issue as above. Otherwise if there is TX A in town A and TX B in town B, the receive will only hear the respective TX site and 'lock' onto it.

The NAC codes will isolate, but if there is only one user on the system, eg: RFS then it will largely serve little purpose. Depends on how OCD you are with your programming. Me, over the top OCD!

Some more free advice, we all started at the beginning, no one was born knowing RF principals or radio programming. We all had to learn. The free advice, don't be afraid to ask questions, but do some homework first, which you appeared to have done, unlike some. And done over think it.
Amateur Radio, when all other cures for insomnia fail!

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