Police to take on Railway Security Role - Attempt 2

[Scotty]

Whow - getting a bit personal I think people

As a quick side note I certainly use a bus as a daily commute, and may not use the trains much in comparison, but I do use trains on Friday/Saturday nights at least once a month. Last time I saw a Transit Officer on my train was when they wore grey uniforms, not that I see any police on there now anyway - so I don't see the problem that was alluded to there.

At the end of the day there are 2 options for the trains being discussed (I'll ignore all other modes of transport as there is a concentration on the railways):

Option 1 (previous arrangement):
- RailCorp Transit Officers, in general, could not arrest offenders and could not take action apart from issuing a ticket (and only for railway offences). For anything more they needed the local police, who are then needed to attend away from their normal areas to confirm ID, investigate, charge, etc. This leads to doubling up of scarce resources. If a person came to a RailCorp TO complaining an offender had assaulted or stole something from them, and the RailCorp TO did not see the offence occur, they had no power of arrest above that of a normal citizen and no authority to investigate. RailCorp TO's were further restricted by policy saying they were "NOT to become involved in any situation that involves conflict or the likelihood of conflict and they are to walk away" (as quoted from another thread here). Therefore they are bound by policy to NOT interfere in incidents that occur, and one must question what their actual role is short of revenue protection.

Option 2 (current arrangement):
- NSW Police officers, allocated to transport duties, who can arrest for any offence, investigate offences and take any appropriate action, including issuing tickets, charging, etc. This means no doubling up of scarce resources. Police have full powers of arrest and have authority to investigate all offences reported to them.
- Coupled with the police are NSW Transport Officers, who solely conduct revenue duties (basically an old RailCorp Transit Officer without handcuffs and a baton).

I'm happy to be corrected if the above isn't correct, but on the above alone you need to question the worth of the RailCorp Transit Officers and most would see why they were replaced with police and transport officers.

[rustynswrail]

Whow - getting a bit personal I think people

As a quick side note I certainly use a bus as a daily commute, and may not use the trains much in comparison, but I do use trains on Friday/Saturday nights at least once a month. Last time I saw a Transit Officer on my train was when they wore grey uniforms, not that I see any police on there now anyway - so I don't see the problem that was alluded to there.

At the end of the day there are 2 options for the trains being discussed (I'll ignore all other modes of transport as there is a concentration on the railways):

Option 1 (previous arrangement):
- RailCorp Transit Officers, in general, could not arrest offenders and could not take action apart from issuing a ticket (and only for railway offences). For anything more they needed the local police, who are then needed to attend away from their normal areas to confirm ID, investigate, charge, etc. This leads to doubling up of scarce resources. If a person came to a RailCorp TO complaining an offender had assaulted or stole something from them, and the RailCorp TO did not see the offence occur, they had no power of arrest above that of a normal citizen and no authority to investigate. RailCorp TO's were further restricted by policy saying they were "NOT to become involved in any situation that involves conflict or the likelihood of conflict and they are to walk away" (as quoted from another thread here). Therefore they are bound by policy to NOT interfere in incidents that occur, and one must question what their actual role is short of revenue protection.

Option 2 (current arrangement):
- NSW Police officers, allocated to transport duties, who can arrest for any offence, investigate offences and take any appropriate action, including issuing tickets, charging, etc. This means no doubling up of scarce resources. Police have full powers of arrest and have authority to investigate all offences reported to them.
- Coupled with the police are NSW Transport Officers, who solely conduct revenue duties (basically an old RailCorp Transit Officer without handcuffs and a baton).

I'm happy to be corrected if the above isn't correct, but on the above alone you need to question the worth of the RailCorp Transit Officers and most would see why they were replaced with police and transport officers.

I wasn't by any stretch of the imagination, getting personal. It is about perception and misperception.

The argument is not about the Transit Officers or Transport Officers, it is about a dedicated transport police. A group whose sole function, as it was in my day, to police public transport, ie; railways, buses and ferries. To have as we had, full powers of arrest, to charged and prosecuted their own matters before the court. To be armed as we were, with a service pistol, handcuffs, and batons (initially we had a short baton later on long batons were issued). Our duties related to public transport, we did not assist the police with urgent calls, we did not transport prisoners for the police and we certainly did not depart from our core function - protection of passengers, protection of property and the arrest and prosecution of offenders against the transport system.

When the Transit Officers were returned to the system, unfortunately the 'goodie two shoes' rail management and government of the time decided to make them a customer service function, a grave mistake. I was working for State Rail at the time and was privy to their training etc. How many other customer service roles carry batons, handcuffs and issue thousands of dollars in fines? Alas railway policy was decided by the same weak management, who want to treat criminals as victims and victims as criminals, but I digress.

The British Transport Police is a prime example of a successful transport police organisation. Having travelled on the rail system in the UK extensively I can say from experience the BTP are everywhere. Even at full strength I sincerely doubt that the PTC will even come close. For the travelling public I would like to be proved wrong, but ...

R

[Scotty]

The discussion is whether the new arrangements are better or worse for the public as a whole when compared to the arrangements they replaced - not to a 'Transport Police' who were disbanded more than 25 years ago. They are not the ones who have been replaced recently, that was the RailCorp Transit Officers. Any comparison with the new arrangements needs to be made directly with the RailCorp TO's.

In that sense, as I mentioned above, it's difficult to mount any argument on how RailCorp Transit Officers were a better solution when compared to the new arrangement of NSW Police in a dedicated Transport Command along with NSW Transport Officers for revenue protection patrolling trains. As you rightly point out, time will tell.

And Russell, the 'getting a bit personal' remark was directed at comments made by others...

[rustynswrail]

The discussion is whether the new arrangements are better or worse for the public as a whole when compared to the arrangements they replaced - not to a 'Transport Police' who were disbanded more than 25 years ago. They are not the ones who have been replaced recently, that was the RailCorp Transit Officers. Any comparison with the new arrangements needs to be made directly with the RailCorp TO's.

In that sense, as I mentioned above, it's difficult to mount any argument on how RailCorp Transit Officers were a better solution when compared to the new arrangement of NSW Police in a dedicated Transport Command along with NSW Transport Officers for revenue protection patrolling trains. As you rightly point out, time will tell.

And Russell, the 'getting a bit personal' remark was directed at comments made by others...

Okay and maybe before this topic strains the friendship that it be locked?

R