2011 IPART Inquiry into Pricing of GRN Services

[citabria]

OTAR is already available on the GRN

Is anyone using it yet? I haven't seen any OTAR traffic going across the traffic channels in my (very limited) monitoring..

Cheers,
Matt

[ivahri]

Probably not at this stage but it is early days yet.

[vk2vkg]

So Richard, what does OTA do on a trunk network, it takes up a talkgroup, does this talk group take up a voice freq on the GRN repeater ? So what is the difference between this and the police going onto a back channel and doing the upgrade on their P25 network.

Harry

They won't use OTAR and OTAP [as it] takes a long time for each radio. great for targeted updates or stations that are some distance but that's about it.

BTW, OTA functions would work equally as well over their current conventional P25 networks as they would on the GRN, it may just mean they would need multiple KMFs instead of one centralised facility operating on a single talkgroup?

Andrew

Huh? OTA works equally well over conventional as trunk? Are you serious? While the data is being sent voice traffic ceases... so they put their radio traffic on hold while they do radio upgrades? That is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Trunking has an inherent advantage as a dedicated talkgroup can be set aside for transmitting upgrades to one radio at a time while the others continue to be fully operational- no disruption to normal operations. Huge difference between the two- and the reason why trunking is fundamentally more capable than conventional.

Cheers,


Richard

[ivahri]

Harry,

So what if it takes up a voice channel? You wouldn't be doing this kind of work when the network is running flat out. Sites almost always have at least a few voice channels quiet at any time so using one for OTAR (milliseconds) or OTAP (up to 20 minutes per radio) isn't going to cause any disruption to traffic.

If Police have a "back channel" isn't that inefficient? That goes back to the issues raised in IPART and other reports... Trunk it, then we all have a "back channel". That is no different to FRNSW's Special Ops talkgroups (which is their "back channel")... they only use spectrum when they are needed, the rest of the time everyone can use the spectrum. I know it is a difficult concept for plods to grasp- but even those with guns can share.

Cheers,


Richard

[Scotty]

Are we looking at the same document? How could anyone possibly justify one agency, NSW Police, proposing to spend the same amount as the entire GRN? That is plain nuts and I think the staff of other agencies should be totally p*ssed that one agency has got away with using its political clout over the years at the expense of everyone else.

But only a small part of the money the cops are spending on their own PMR system will be put towards the GRN - and I would say a large amount of that would go towards access fees, not towards building new sites. The left over money will be spread throughout the rest of the police budget.

That leaves a big problem, being that the current GRN coverage is not adequate. Where does the department behind the GRN plan on getting the funds to build sites that would provide sufficient coverage? And were not talking one or two sites, were talking at least doubling, if not tripling the number of sites in Sydney alone. So at least another 30-60 sites in Sydney. That’s massive, massive dollars.

Not just that, but all current sites in the Sydney metro area would need to be upgraded with voice channels. Where other emergency services have 2 or 3 normal operational channels in the metro area, using 2 or 3 channels on each site, the cops have 10 or so operational channels. While each channel would not be broadcast off every site, the major sites would need at least another 5 or 6 voice channels added just to fit the police, not to mention all the other Govt services they are looking at moving over.

The GRN is what the police need, and I do definitely think the cops will one day switch over. But I don’t think the GRN is yet at a standard where that will happen. Some say it will happen soon, but I’d almost put money on it being 5 years before the normal day to day cops channels are on the GRN.

[centralcoastscanman]

my un-educated thoughts on the police changing over

1) NSWPF are only one agency that run their own pmr network that need to move over... If only one agency moves over and demands the network to be of a high standard but put bugger all money towards it then they will be in for a rude shock. As i was told by the GCIO guys one day when i had a meeting with them... We can give you 99.9% coverage, if you want 100% coverage you need to put your own money into it.

2) It will be a couple of years before the entire NSWPF changes over to the grn, there are already some specialist units running on the grn now using a split profile of Zone 1 - NSWPF, Zone 2 - NSWGRN... that way they get the best of both worlds
I believe there will be some LAC's move over and trial it, similar to the way Digital was rolled out in the begining to NSWPF...

[ivahri]

Scotty,

I think you will find that funding for PMR will be tightened drastically, not just for Police but for all of us. It will hit Police the hardest because they have a long tradition of doing their own thing because in most areas they own the infrastructure. The first question asked before any funds are released will be "why can't you share?". That means shared links, common bases, multicoupled antennas, and common design, managed centrally from the Telco agency. And before any of that happens the option of trunking will need to be absolutely ruled out- otherwise it will become part of the GRN. Investment on replacing existing PMR will be delayed as long as possible... I'm seeing this now. The RFS are deluding themselves...

You can keep kidding yourself that the GRN coverage will take a long time to upgrade but you are in for a shock. Telco know where the Police sites in Sydney are so the moment the spectrum becomes available & the funds are released new Moto bases will be bolted in right next to those Police bases there now. Sydney is easy- expensive but easy. Once that happens Police are moving over- the Police Commissioner signed off on it as did every other DG. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...

Cheers,

Richard

[ivahri]

Not just that, but all current sites in the Sydney metro area would need to be upgraded with voice channels. Where other emergency services have 2 or 3 normal operational channels in the metro area, using 2 or 3 channels on each site, the cops have 10 or so operational channels. While each channel would not be broadcast off every site, the major sites would need at least another 5 or 6 voice channels added just to fit the police, not to mention all the other Govt services they are looking at moving over.

Scotty,

10 is a tad exaggerating it... but so what? You need another 2-3 voice channels per site? Not a problem- consider it done! I doubt 10, except for periods of peak load, but even that can be designed for. Because it is not going to cost more to do this as part of an integrated GRN than it would if Police did it themselves as a TETRA network. It will cost LESS! Why do you think that it is any more of a challenge for the GRN to do it than Police? It is the same challenge...

Cheers,


Richard

[BerryV]

They won't use OTAR and OTAP [as it] takes a long time for each radio. great for targeted updates or stations that are some distance but that's about it.

OTAP maybe but I can't believe that it takes longer to rekey over the air than to physically connect a KVL to every radio in the state?

You have to bear in mind that once NSWPF moves over to the GRN, every radio in the state (or at least all those within the GRN footprint) will go encrypted over night so we're not just talking about rekeying radios within a reasonably small metro area any more?

BTW, OTA functions would work equally as well over their current conventional P25 networks as they would on the GRN, it may just mean they would need multiple KMFs instead of one centralised facility operating on a single talkgroup?

Andrew

You’re joking yea? All metro radios are encrypted already and they don't use OTAR, Suggesting conventional is even an alternative to trunked for OTAP and OTAR is crazy.

The GRN is what the police need, and I do definitely think the cops will one day switch over. But I don’t think the GRN is yet at a standard where that will happen. Some say it will happen soon, but I’d almost put money on it being 5 years before the normal day to day cops channels are on the GRN.

It’s happening and a LOT sooner than 5 years.

Scotty,

I think you will find that funding for PMR will be tightened drastically, not just for Police but for all of us. It will hit Police the hardest because they have a long tradition of doing their own thing because in most areas they own the infrastructure. The first question asked before any funds are released will be "why can't you share?". That means shared links, common bases, multicoupled antennas, and common design, managed centrally from the Telco agency. And before any of that happens the option of trunking will need to be absolutely ruled out- otherwise it will become part of the GRN. Investment on replacing existing PMR will be delayed as long as possible... I'm seeing this now. The RFS are deluding themselves...

You can keep kidding yourself that the GRN coverage will take a long time to upgrade but you are in for a shock. Telco know where the Police sites in Sydney are so the moment the spectrum becomes available & the funds are released new Moto bases will be bolted in right next to those Police bases there now. Sydney is easy- expensive but easy. Once that happens Police are moving over- the Police Commissioner signed off on it as did every other DG. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...

Cheers,

Richard

“they own the infrastructure” ? no, we as tax payers own it. If it’s not needed for the GRN, it should be sold off and the money invested back into shared radio services for all govt groups to use.

All radio funding for all agencies should have a drop date. I.e, Don’t move your service over, start taking a funding hit of several million dollars. Duplication of service is typical of union dominated groups. They want to keep control for as long as possible.

[ivahri]

Berry,

Ooops, sorry, you are absolutely right. The taxpayer owns them... I've spent way too much time in RNSs- I've been indoctrinated!

Cheers,

Richard